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three
I
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gatri
when I first took my seat in Parliament
almost 30 years ago the house was full
of characters men and women of
independent mind the content of whose
speech could not be predicted as they
Rose to give it whose vote could not be
guaranteed by the political machine and
who wouldn't have dreamt of being told
what to say by pager as they quaintly
called them in those days we had no
mobile phones no internet no emails even
the facts had not been invented and it
is long since dead it was easier to be
sure to make up your own mind in those
days nowadays there are precious few
politicians who stand out from the crowd
as people of Integrity who say what they
mean and mean what they say whether you
agree with them or not you can respect
them for that our first guest Stan
Sentinel over these old traditions the
son of a peer and editor of the times
when that title meant something and the
Member of Parliament for Northeast
Somerset Jacob Rees MOG Jacob thanks for
joining us let's uh cut to the chase on
that point uh being the editor of the
times isn't what it used to be being a
member of parliament isn't what it used
to be why do you think that decline has
occurred well I wonder whether this is
true or whether this isn't something
that people have always said through
throughout the generations and there's a
great line in bosz's life of Johnson
when Dr Johnson who's friend of Edmund
Burke among others complains that there
are no proper issues and Statesmen as
there were in the reign of King Charles
I and if you if you think of the people
who Johnson knew and was dealing with
who we now look back on as amazing and
important figures I just wonder if this
isn't just part of the natural tide of
history that you look back at people and
see their successes and forget that when
you were first elected 30 years ago
there have been some pretty boring
speeches in the House of Commons but
those are forgettable and you put those
to one side and remember the great
events I I thought that you might answer
uh thus uh and it's Gallant of you to do
so but there are some things which can't
be denied uh you may or may not know but
the music of the 60s and the 70s the
popular music of the' 60s and the' 70s
is seen as a golden age objectively
nothing quite like
in a decade or 15 years uh has ever been
seen since Harold Wilson's cabinet had
10 people in it who could have been
prime minister in the afternoon and most
of them were trying to be uh there are
objective truths I think in this that
the in a parliament where ideology uh is
less important where party management
and machine politics more Salient it
must be true mustn't it that the number
of members of parliament like you one of
the tor's most uh rebellious members but
in any case one who's I think
universally seen as someone who
genuinely tells you what they think
rather than what someone told them to
think uh it it must be a decline surely
I don't think so if you look at um
voting patterns in the last Parliament
2010 to 2015 it was the most rebellious
Parliament ped War and the parliaments
in the ' 50s and 60s had hardly any
Rebellion against party whip so that
instead of people becoming less
independent-minded they become more uh
independent-minded I think there is an
area where we could agree and that is
over the approach taken by new labor
which I think was very controlled it was
very successful but it was very
controlled and people had to fit in with
the discipline that was imposed or else
uh they were essentially sidelined
possibly even removed and I don't think
that was good for politics but I think
it's opened up again since I used to sit
with people whose pockets would
Buzz younger viewers will not know but
there was a thing called a pager and
someone sent you what they called in the
Blair days the line to take and you'd
see members simultaneously reach into
their pocket and read what they were
supposed to be shouting uh across at the
opposition or what they should say if
they caught the uh speaker's eye I take
your point about the votes I knew that
statistic but somehow the speeches the
arguments seem less important Rob at
least from as as he says following a
line but I think you've got to compare
this with the run-of the-mill uh of the
speeches 30 years ago that not every
speech made 30 years ago was Enoch pal
standing up to say to Margaret thata I
asked the right honorable lady what
metal she was made of and I've had the
response back from the scientists and
they say it's titanium plated steel
those are incredible moments were very
much one-offs and now we do have our
moments um um Hillary Ben's speech on
the Syria debate and you wouldn't have
agreed with any of it but it was a quite
remarkable parliamentary occasion and
yes of course we have uh routine
speeches about less exciting subjects
that are fully in line with with party
policy um but then you get yesterday
chrispen blunt saying that um he took
poppers um which my eyes popped C some
confusion because most of us thought
they were those party things that you
get flying about at Christmas and didn't
realize they had other connotations
that's right um indeed now that's a fair
point let's talk then about the great
issues
because uh in Look Back in Anger Osborne
has his character complained that there
are no great issues which is bunam of
course there have been great issues
every year uh since the great issue now
yawning in front of us is the European
Union MH it's my thesis that we could be
seeing with the Corbin Le labor party
with a couple of hundred MPS disaffected
from
him and a
clear big cleavage on the European issue
in the conservative party and now
minuscule liberal Democrat uh group that
we may see a realignment of British
politics around this issue I'll be with
you campaigning to withdraw uh from the
European Union for different reasons no
doubt uh do you see Europe as a defining
issue that's going to have a lasting
impact on the British political scene I
think it's a crucially important issue
and the decision that we're about to
make is going to determine Britain's
place in the world for the next couple
of generations so it's very important in
that uh context I I think we should be
bold stand up for ourselves and vote to
leave I think the renegotiation is
essentially in irrelevance uh and that
the time has come to make the big
decision and there are so many
opportunities for us if we do that in
countries that we deal with the
relations we can develop the trade we
can do I think it's very positive if we
decide to do that in terms of party
realignment um it's very interesting
looking at your old party that I have a
feeling that if it weren't for what
happened in the early 1980s the scars of
the sdp experience the labor party would
be looking at a realignment that there
is grave dissatisfaction of the
Parliamentary party with the leader who
has the support of the party in the
country but because of the memories of
what happened in 1981 and onwards and
that that led to a very long period in
office for the conservatives I think
there's a deep hesitancy to take the
steps towards the realignment so I'm I'm
not sure there will be any big change in
the party political functions over the
coming months or years what about the in
the Tories it said that up to 70% of Tor
MPS will support withdrawal whilst the
government and the government machine
will of course be campaigning for
remaining in the European Union will
that be a lasting cleavage or easily
papered over well you mentioned Harold
Wilson how he managed to run a cabinet
with dozen people in it who thought they
could be prime minister And he as a
party manager was a quite remarkably
successful individual let's leave leave
aside what he did in terms of running
the country because we're not going to
agree on his successes on that I think
we can agree that as a political manager
he was a genius and I think David
Cameron has learned a great deal from
that uh and by offering the referendum
and by suspending Collective
responsibility he set in place the
ground work for the party to be United
after the referendum is out of the way
and I think that's very important I
think it's very beneficial for
conservatism and it will then depend on
who succeeds him and whether the person
who succeeds him wishes to continue in
the same mold or decides to lay down the
law on the European issue which would be
very uh damaging I think David K's been
very very clever and astute about this
you don't think that there will be those
who would be king or queen uh uh who
would use a defeat for David Cameron
because don't forget in the course of
the referendum he's going to have to be
stronger and stronger and stronger in
support of remaining in and the stronger
he gets in favor of staying in if he
loses the greater the political damage
to him might very well be and there will
be some we can name two or three already
uh who think well I'd like to succeed
and now is the opportunity to strike you
don't see the possibility of David
Cameron being defenestrated over this no
oddly I think his position is in some
ways better if he loses than if he wins
because the people who are in favor of
leaving will be bitterly disappointed in
the country at large I'm not to say much
about MERS of parliament will be
bitterly disappointed if we don't and
may then look at what he said and say
well the Prime Minister was too
aggressive he took too great a lead in
this that uh his positions were unfair
it gave the in campaign an unfair
Advantage whereas if he loses and he
says afterwards okay I've listened to
the country that's my job now is to get
the best deal we can as we leave the EU
I'm absolutely up for it and let's bind
things together the people who wanted to
leave will be delighted by the result
and I think will be very willing to say
well that's fine you've accepted the
situation and now let's rally behind you
I oddly think the difficulty uh is if he
wins and you may find that there is some
underlying resentment about the result
you said uh at the time didn't you that
uh that the conservatives should make an
arrangement with ukip do you hold to
that um very interestingly the election
results seem to show more labor voters
going to ukip than conservative voters
uh I thought a a deal would have helped
us win the last election we were then
able to win it on our own cuz the
opinion POS turned out to be wrong what
I think ukip's been successful uh is in
appealing to disaffected labor voors who
probably are striving and wanting to
improve their lives don't view
themselves as natural Tes but quite like
some of the Bolder patriotic messages uh
that ukip's giving and that may be a
section of old labor voters who are
appealed to by Nigel farage um possibly
some who Margaret Thatcher appeals to
but that currently the conservative
party doesn't so I think we can
certainly learn from ukip even if a
formal pack was something before the
last election rather than relevant for
today Jacob Reese Moog thanks for coming
on the Sputnik coming up next from an
English Grande to a Palestinian one the
lord of the manner of shoot don't miss
it welcome back to Sputnik the huge
Palestinian indan population which stood
fast in the upheaval of 1948 when
Palestine was wiped off the map and
Israel replaced it has been all but
invisible for 60 years even for someone
like me who has specialized in the
subject almost all of my life in fact I
know only one such Israeli Arab and he's
with me now he's a fascinating
charismatic individual and he has
emerged as quite a player in London a
football agent a successful lawyer a
benef factor to every good cause and an
honorary Lord he is Led kalala of the
manner of Sho Abdul halim welcome on
board the Sputnik let's get the
nomenclature right from the start are
you an Israeli Arab or are you a
Palestinian I think I'm Palestinian and
I'm an Arab and I have Israeli passport
I I think these titles cause me a lot of
problems in our life tell me
because this identity issue we live it
and we always struggle with it
because I was born in yafa and kufur
kasum I don't know any Arab country I'd
never been before in Muslim
countries I never ever felt that any
Israeli ever called me Palestinian all
what they call me Israeli Arab so I love
being an Arab I'm so proud to be Arabic
but also the word Israeli I struggle
with it because I I felt like if I was
Israeli then I be treated equal then I
wouldn't really worry what's happening
15 minutes drive away from my house in
West Bank or in Gaza so it is a problem
and when you say Israel I mean if if you
look at what's happening in Israel
Israel is almost two states in one
state so let's go back and say who we
are we are
Palestinians in
1948 when the neba
happened 85% of us were forced to leave
and one of the 15% who were left more
than 500 Villages were destroyed and
disappeared of the map
78% of the land was confiscated and
taken and I was left like to try to
rebuild what used to be there a George I
am not going to sit here and start
scoring points and saying this and that
what I'm going to tell
you and possibly you agree with me I
love this country which is my country we
go back later on whether we call it
Israel or Palestine but it's Palestine
historically I love that country because
I was born I know what's the meaning of
olive oil I know what's the meaning of
fig I know the meaning of the city of
Jerusalem but one thing I am not going
to accept being
told what to do in my country by
settlers by extremists by
Fanatics by especially the government of
Israel now whether you believe it I
remember 20 years ago when I was at
schools and universities in isra in
Israel I always argued with them who
came first like whether the chicken or
the egg we always who was here so I
showed my Jewish friends that my
granddad and my family been in Palestine
for the last 5 600 years oh then they
said to me oh I'm only been here for 20
years but before that King David then he
goes to King Solon then he goes to ABRA
so if we go like that we could never
finish the argument but all what need to
talk now can we live together and what's
the answer to
that the answer we can't live together
George you will not believe if I tell
you the Hebrew
language because I speak Arabic but I
speak Hebrew as a first language but you
know I control the Hebrew language
better than any Jewish from New York
better than any Jewish from London
better than any Jewish from Germany
Hebrew is a language we have no problem
with it Jewish people I have no problem
with them Jewish people have more in
common with the Arabs people wrot the
book exactly we are cousins allegedly I
don't know why these cousins are not
good at the moment but we are supposed
to live together I remember 20 years ago
we used to have in Israel two sections
left wing and right wing it was
maai
maam all this
abin Rabin B
now in Israel we don't have a left wing
the only left wing is peace now it's
very small
Shon so so the left wing used to be 50%
of the population now in Israel the left
wing is not even a
20% Mass immigration of uh of Russians
to Israel this has changed the political
balance that's that's one way to look at
it but actually the Israeli
politicians
manipulating to be so popular you have
to please the settlers you have to be
pleasing the settlers who bring the
money from abroad you have to please the
extremist so everybody was running so
the left wing start running to the
center and then they disappeared when
Barack so disappeared and now whether
you believe it Netanyahu is is actually
relatively is the leftwing in the
government he's the only leftwing in the
government I know you laugh it's the
irony that because every irony you said
and uh it's important for people to
grasp the geography of this the West
Bank is 15 minutes away from you yes
they are Palestinians you are
Palestinian you are in one state and
they are in a state of stateless
absolutely it is true though when I
first started going to your part of the
world and I I I was in kufur kasum at
least 30 years
ago uh that there was no connection then
between the people uh inside the green
line in Israel and the people 15 minutes
away the occupied ter I love that has
that changed oh big time I love that you
touch on this point you know
it's very sad that we the Palestinians
who have Israeli passport we were
neglected for so
long we were left
alone from 1948 until 1967 we were under
military occupation and in
1967 Israel moved the army uniforms to
West
Bank and they were civilian clothes but
they still ruled us in a different way
so they rule the West Bank with bullets
and Army and guns while with us they
rule us with making law to make our life
miserable so they never ever ever in the
Israeli government were interested to
harmonize the Palestinians together they
never wanted to bring standard of living
to make them the same standard it's the
biggest joke I have with my friends when
I hear that Israel is a member of the
oecd that means it's a joke like the
whole organization that people live the
same so so Israel created mistrust
between us oh these guys they speak hu
these guys they happy here so they the
media the racism in the media described
us that we almost like different people
but in reality we are the same and also
I'm not going to come and praise the
Palestinian authorities or any
Palestinian leadership the Arab world
neglected us the Muslim word neglected
us so the Israeli word wanted to destroy
us so we have no intellectual contact
but
now we are financially
supporting every single Palestinian City
in West Bank or Village who struggle
financially we are the Protectors of the
AL AA holy Shrine without us the AL AA
would have been demolished and been
abandoned long time ago every day more
than 5600 buses go from the palace
because the people in West Bank and Gaza
cannot visit Al KS they but they can't
stop you from going but they can't stop
us so what we do we go and support KS
and then we started every Saturday and
Friday and Sunday we go and do shopping
in West Bank because these poor guys
after cultivating their agriculture the
Jewish people cannot don't go there
anymore shopping so we go and do our
shoppings in West Bank to help them we
are one nation do you have a dream I
would love to live with the Jewish
people in this from the
from the sea to the Jordan River where
every Jewish man can go and exercise his
holy duties towards whatever he want
Christian so I like when I walk into
Jerusalem and I stand outside the wall
of Jerusalem I see a big IM and a big
Sheikh and a priest playing B gam
together and when it says Allah abbar
then they go each one Whatever to do and
they come back continue the G game with
a Mente and I want want every
Palestinian on the planet to visit the
country and to enjoy it I want every
Jewish to come and I want every
Christian to come and do pilgrimage and
I want people to come and feel it's a
really Holy Land we might not have oil
but we have olive
oil thank you very much indeed for a
wonderful wonderful tour of the
Palestinian
[Music]
Horizon and now it's your turn to tell
us what you think through the portals of
of social media what's rling G
Parliament has it come to this we wanted
to know the people's thoughts about the
quality of the debates and Blind Willie
Mel says it doesn't really qualifies as
debating when MPS simply regurgitate
what a spin doctor has told them to say
and Raymond deloney says standards have
definitely dropped since they allowed TV
cameras into a chamber now Jacob would
definitely have agreed with that one
life but not as we know it what is it
like to be for a Palestinian Within in
the green line living within the green
line Maggie Ellen says horrific is what
it must be rather like being a Jew in
Nazi Germany horrific uh not as bad as
that of course because uh Hitler
massacred millions of Jews and that's
not true inside uh Israel but uh I think
we got some taste today quite movingly I
felt uh of the neither fish nor fowl the
lack of identity and that's all that
we've got time for this week which alas
means that's the end of the show you can
stay in touch with us though on Twitter
at rtor Sputnik or on Facebook Sputnik
on Russia today it's goodbye from me
gatri and from me George Galloway it's
been
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marvelous